LDS [Archive] - Scuba Ontario

serge

01-12-2009, 04:25 PM

Dan Dive Shop (http://www.dansdiveshop.ca/) is a "real deal" Halcyon "DIR Dive Systems" (http://www.halcyon.net/) Dealer. They are not grey market so you get full warranties just like you do at NTD.

By all means mention shops that can provide support, products and such, *but*, in my humble opinion when posed with two equal options I'd suggest supporting the LDS.

Dan's and NTD's prices are likely very very similar. If you live in the Kingston area shop at NTD, if you live in the Niagara area shop at Dan's. If you live somewhere in the middle flip a coin or figure out which you are closer to.

Whichever way you go really I don't think you can make a wrong choice.

Serge.

So does NTD (http://www.northerntechdiver.com/).
Besides, NTD is a GUE member shop. Why not support the shop that is associated with the "real deal" ;)

JohnG

01-12-2009, 04:32 PM

Dan Dive Shop (http://www.dansdiveshop.ca/) is a "real deal" Halcyon "DIR Dive Systems" (http://www.halcyon.net/) Dealer. They are not grey market so you get full warranties just like you do at NTD.

By all means mension shops that can provide support, products and such, *but*, in my humble oppinion when posed with two equal options I'd suggest supporting the LDS.

Dan's and NTD's prices are likely very very similar. If you live in the Kingston area shop at NTD, if you live in the Niagara area shop at Dan's. If you live somewhere in the middle flip a coin or figure out which you are closer to.

Whichever way you go really I don't think you can make a wrong choice.

Serge.

I would totally agree, first and foremost support your LDS. Whichever shop that may be. You want them to be there when you need fills! and you are helping your local economy.

It doesn't hurt that my LDS is #6 in North America for Halcyon gear sales:)

Oren

01-12-2009, 04:55 PM

If you read my post more carefully, you'll notice that I never said that Dan's isn't a real Halcyon dealer.
I said that NTD is a GUE associated shop and since this thread is about gearing up for a GUE-F course, I suggested to support the shop that offers the "real deal" training. That's all. YMMV. ;)

Jen

01-12-2009, 05:34 PM

There are points on both sides. I do recall Dan even saying...support your LDS. I patron both, and it depends on availability, price, and where I happen to be. I will always support the LDS because we all need them to stay in business. Same piece of kit at a closer store make it hard to pass up. If it was not what I was looking for than by all means, I would go to where I can get it. Like my 100 ft MOD stickers. I am ordering them elsewhere since they are unavailable at the LDS.

Jay Roy

01-12-2009, 05:35 PM

There are points on both sides. I do recall Dan even saying...support your LDS.

I have heard Dan say this several times as well.......

Joe

01-13-2009, 12:11 AM

I have heard Dan say this several times as well.......

Yepp, took fundies with a red Dan's diveshop mask strap. I was joking with Dan about it and he said "dude gotta support the LDS"... Having said that they are both great shops and NTD is my LDS when in Kingston.

serge

01-13-2009, 09:22 AM

Hey Oren,

I did read your post carefully. I guess I don't understand what you mean by "GUE associated shop". If you look at GUE's Website (http://www.gue.com) you see on the right hand side a list of "GUE Facilities" of which NTD nor Dan's is on the list. My first guess was that this is what you meant by "GUE associated shop" but I was mistaken.

If you go to Halcyon's Dealer List (http://www.halcyon.net/dealers/international-dealers.shtml) under Ontario you see both NTD and Dan's listed.

So I guess I still don't understand what you meant :p

I think really the net result either way though is that you can't go wrong with either choice but in general, if possible, it's always good to support your LDS :D

Serge.

If you read my post more carefully, you'll notice that I never said that Dan's isn't a real Halcyon dealer.
I said that NTD is a GUE associated shop and since this thread is about gearing up for a GUE-F course, I suggested to support the shop that offers the "real deal" training. That's all. YMMV. ;)

Warren_L

01-13-2009, 12:10 PM

Hey Oren,

I did read your post carefully. I guess I don't understand what you mean by "GUE associated shop". If you look at GUE's Website (http://www.gue.com) you see on the right hand side a list of "GUE Facilities" of which NTD nor Dan's is on the list. My first guess was that this is what you meant by "GUE associated shop" but I was mistaken.

If you go to Halcyon's Dealer List (http://www.halcyon.net/dealers/international-dealers.shtml) under Ontario you see both NTD and Dan's listed.

So I guess I still don't understand what you meant :p

I think really the net result either way though is that you can't go wrong with either choice but in general, if possible, it's always good to support your LDS :D

Serge.

I think he means a shop that offers actual GUE training, if I read him correctly.

Oren

01-13-2009, 07:59 PM

Yes, Warren got what I was trying to say pretty exactly.

Supporting your LDS is a blanket statement. I think that an LDS has to earn our trust and support.
It's good that you've had good experience with your LDS but not everyone has.
That's why I will only agree with your statements that you should support your LDS if the LDS has earned it.

serge

01-13-2009, 10:09 PM

In an ideal world yes *BUT* the reality is if nobody supports the LDS how do you get air?

As well I don't really want to turn this into a flame war. Your comment "It's good that you've had good experience with your LDS but not everyone has." is a bit inflametory and seems to specifically target a perticular store for some reason (Maybe I read that wrong). Care to speak of the bad experiance you had specifically? I don't feel that unfounded general comments help anybody myself, so I typically like to see backup.

On that same note I hear there was a customer that had a bad experiance with your LDS to; Oh ya and I read on Deco Stop that some guy named Mark in Texas has a bad experiance with his LDS to. I have no idea how that helps anybody buying a Halcyon SMB but I felt the need to type it anyways...

I just don't understand what value those comments are adding to this thread about preparing for DIRf :p.

Serge.

Yes, Warren got what I was trying to say pretty exactly.

Supporting your LDS is a blanket statement. I think that an LDS has to earn our trust and support.
It's good that you've had good experience with your LDS but not everyone has.
That's why I will only agree with your statements that you should support your LDS if the LDS has earned it.

Oren

01-13-2009, 10:36 PM

In an ideal world yes *BUT* the reality is if nobody supports the LDS how do you get air?

I don't dive air... :)
But to answer your question:
If I would not be happy with my LDS, I'd go to a different one to get my fills...
If I would not be happy with the second one, I'd go to the next...
And so on until I had enough and would buy me a device that you must heard of too....A compressor...;)

As well I don't really want to turn this into a flame war. Your comment is a bit inflametory and seems to specifically target a perticular store for some reason (Maybe I read that wrong). Care to speak of the bad experiance you had specifically? I don't feel that unfounded general comments help anybody myself, so I typically like to see backup.
Well, if you didn't want to turn it into a flame war, why did you ask.
It's obvious that an answer to your question will inevitably lead to some flames, no?
My comment was rather meant in general about any XYZ LDS and not as you thought, as an attempt to target or comment about your LDS. Why so sensitive?
If you care to know, I did have an experience with you LDS that wasn't an experience to write home about. Do you really want me to dish it here?

I just don't understand what value those comments are adding to this thread about preparing for DIRf :p.

Serge.
Honestly? Neither do I. :)

Rob Smith

01-13-2009, 10:51 PM

I live in Scarborough, my LDS is in Oshawa. I make the drive out there and have purchased pretty much everything from that shop. They have treated me with great respect as I them. I have gone to others shops From Dan's across to NTD and have purchased items from diferent shops just like I do with anything else outside of scuba, food, beer, clothes etc. I do it to support the dive industry and any LDS shop owner I have met respects and expects this. My lds will order things for me they don't normally stock, but sometimes I don't want to wait so I go where I know it is on the shelf. The same goes for courses. If my shop is not offering a course I want and another is I will go there. We are all in this together so we all help out when we can. I believe in loyalty, and I believe in sharing the wealth. We need to keep the mom and pop shops going, local or not. Everyone deserves to make money and everyone has a right to choose where they shop. I believe in helping all the shops out, local or not becaue at the end of the day when your tanks are empty, you can't get air fills over the net.

The above relates to GUE training and equipment not offered by my lds...
I've Rambled enough!...lol...

Chantelle

01-13-2009, 11:06 PM

These pretzels are making me thirsty...

serge

01-13-2009, 11:09 PM

I think you need water :p

These pretzels are making me thirsty...

Chantelle

01-13-2009, 11:10 PM

I think you need water :p

Yessssss please!

Matthew Mandziuk

01-14-2009, 02:28 AM

Well Oren, Not to "rock to boat" but just because a shop is "gue" shop, it doesn't mean they're the "real deal".

If memory serves correct, I was diving DIR before NTD existed.

It doesn't matter the agency, but more so the level of training and even though you've never trained with me, I'm pretty sure we could learn a lot from diving with each other.

As far as "real Deals Go", why would someone buy a DUI drysuit from you if you're not a "real" dive facility. I mean aren't you just a guy picking up the slack for those shops who don't sell DUI? I mean how do you compete with someone who has sold DUI and other brands of drysuits for over 35yrs and never had a complaint when it comes to price or service? Why should someone buy DUI off you if you're praising NTD? In reality I don't see either of you getting a DUI sales award for the 9th year in a row now. I respect you doing drysuit repairs, but leave the DUI drysuit sales to those who are in the industry full time....NTD and Dan's Dive Shop.

I think that you put too much faith in the name of a training agency, I mean TDI, GUE, PADI, UTD, NAUI, doesn't it all come down to the instructor? Like it or not, there are a lot of people who have come and gone in this diving industry and few who remain the genuine article. I'm pretty sure we'll be here as a main stay in diving and we have lead the trends in diving since our inception in 1974, why stop now?

I respect GUE, but I also see that there is a bigger picture in the diving industry. I teach NAUI, as do many of the people who work for Halcyon ironically enough. Maybe if the rest of the industry spent as much time looking at the big picture instead of what agency teaches what, we'd be a bigger sport.

I am aligning myself with divers from all walks of life and even though rule 1 still applies in my selection, agencies are secondary.

Oren

01-14-2009, 09:36 AM

Matt, if I'll find some time today between work, baby, gym workout, baby, a haircut, baby and setting up an education saving plan for the baby to address your questions and concerns, I promise to do it more throughly than you may enjoy. ;)

PeteSmith

01-14-2009, 10:26 AM

............... I promise to do it more throughly than you may enjoy. ;)

rofl!.............................

Joe

01-14-2009, 10:47 AM

Just a reminder folks to please keep it civil. Supporting your LDS is great and I encourage it. Building up the shop you choose to patronize by bad mouthing another has the opposite effect.

Warren_L

01-14-2009, 12:45 PM

Boy I'm having a hard time finding this thread ... it keeps bouncing around from forum to forum. ;)

Anyway, a comment from a casual observer.... I'm not sure why these training threads seem to degenerate towards one LDS vs. another LDS discussions. Nonetheless, given that this particular thread was split from the original thread, some of the previous posts in this thread are now slightly out of context given the new topic. I would agree wholeheartedly with Matt in that GUE is not the only agency that would offer quality DIR style training. In fact, I would say that quality training programs and quality instructors are not the exclusive domain of any one agency. Many people have said this and I believe it holds true.

However, the OP and the topic at hand did ask specifically about the GUE fundamentals course, and in keeping in line with the topic at hand of this thread, it would seem logical to align yourself with a shop that does offer GUE training as they would be best suited to answer and deal with anything specific to GUE courses.

Does this exclude other LDSes from being able to provide quality gear? Not at all. But as far as the training is concerned, if the GUE path is what I wanted, I would certainly look towards a bondafide GUE shop.

Joe

01-14-2009, 01:09 PM

Boy I'm having a hard time finding this thread ... it keeps bouncing around from forum to forum. ;)

There was a bit of a discussion as to where to put it. It moved 3 times I think lol.

Anyway, a comment from a casual observer.... I'm not sure why these training threads seem to degenerate towards one LDS vs. another LDS discussions. Nonetheless, given that this particular thread was split from the original thread, some of the previous posts in this thread are now slightly out of context given the new topic. I would agree wholeheartedly with Matt in that GUE is not the only agency that would offer quality DIR style training. In fact, I would say that quality training programs and quality instructors are not the exclusive domain of any one agency. Many people have said this and I believe it holds true.

I agree. But I find consistency in GUE training and the divers who train with GUE. I have been in the water with divers on the DIR path from other agencies and there is no comparison.

However, the OP and the topic at hand did ask specifically about the GUE fundamentals course, and in keeping in line with the topic at hand of this thread, it would seem logical to align yourself with a shop that does offer GUE training as they would be best suited to answer and deal with anything specific to GUE courses.

Does this exclude other LDSes from being able to provide quality gear? Not at all. But as far as the training is concerned, if the GUE path is what I wanted, I would certainly look towards a bondafide GUE shop.

Now that we have two, soon to be three, fairly local GUEf instructors we have a choice. Unless they all align themselves with NTD.

Joe

01-14-2009, 01:11 PM

I would like to here from the Steves or Dan on this subject. Someone (Chan) let them know about this thread....:rolleyes:

Jimmer

01-14-2009, 01:14 PM

Now that we have two, soon to be three, fairly local GUEf instructors we have a choice. Unless they all align themselves with NTD.

Who are the local GUEf instructors?

Chantelle

01-14-2009, 02:06 PM

I was gonna ask who the second one was too... :o

I'm not really sure what Steve can add to the thread. I will let him know about it, but I don't think there is really much he can say about "this side vs. that side."

He has taken courses with just about every agency there is, and has more cards than I knew actually existed. I really do not want to speak for him, but tried, tested, and true, he sticks with GUE.

I am not knocking any other agency. We all came from somewhere, and learn from many different avenues. There are great instructors in any agency. I do believe (please read that this is my opinion only) from what I have seen (please read that this is my opinion only), there is more consistancy with the quality of instructors within GUE. I'll say it again.... yes, there are great instructors with other agencies... GUE just works for me.

I like the fact that I can jump in the water with another GUE diver, from halfway across the planet, and be on the same page with them.

To be honest, I really don't care who trains with who. I like people. I may not make some of the same choices that they do, but it doesn't mean they aren't good people. I might make my own choices about who I may or may not dive with in certain conditions, and I really hope that doesn't sound "stuck up," as it's not meant to be. I just like to know that the person I'm diving with can help to solve problems the way I need them to be, and vice versa... especially when on a technical or overhead dive. You really do have to trust your buddy with your life, and they have to trust you.

Ok... novel over.. can someone please pass me another bowl of popcorn? Back to reading... :o

Chantelle

01-14-2009, 02:09 PM

Who are the local GUEf instructors?

There is Dan MacKay, based out of Kingston, and I think Joe was alluding to Steve Schultz as the second one, but he is not finished his Instructor training yet. There is Steve Blanchard, who will be doing the ITC this year, based out of Ottawa, and two more that I know of as well (one on the west coast, one on the east coast). It would be really good for GUE to have this many GUE instructors in Canada, and hopefully more for the future! :)

Jen

01-14-2009, 02:10 PM

There is only one canadian GUE instructor, and two interning hopefuls. There are a couple GUE instructors in the US within a 5-8 hour drive. There aren't any GUE instructors local in the Southwestern Ontario area. Having been on both sides of the fence I can honestly say that the training is second to none. DIR is more than having the right kit, it is also diving with the right mind set. This includes not solo diving, being a self sufficient diver but also a compliment to a team, among other things. DIR was developed by a group of divers that took a good long look at diving and diving accidents and thus bacame the foundation of GUE. When it gets said that you've been diving DIR longer than a shop in question has been open its based on a lot of mis interpretations, and is not true based on the true meaning of DIR. To be appreciated one must take a serious look at what the main intention was in the first place. Many of the DIR pioneers take pride in placing the philosophy into the hands of divers who sincerely want to be more competent and comfortable in the water. This appreciation is not fame driven nor is it to become the be all to end all of diving practices.

I like how Warren said that he had a hard time following this thread b/c its on so many different forums. This has been a hot topic in the dive community forever. I am all for supporting the LDS. The thread had nothing to do with that just with a few questions and it got turned into something that it should never have become. Chest beating gets no where and I often leave the conversation shaking my head at this. (I just happened to have time as the farmers discussed resolutions in the other room to respond and I will correct my spelling mistakes that I see when I am off the blackberry.)

Play nice in the sand box boys. I luv you all you know that but it never gets anywhere like this.

Warren_L

01-14-2009, 03:11 PM

I agree. But I find consistency in GUE training and the divers who train with GUE. I have been in the water with divers on the DIR path from other agencies and there is no comparison.

Now that we have two, soon to be three, fairly local GUEf instructors we have a choice. Unless they all align themselves with NTD.

Being GUE trained myself, I would agree with you. A couple of Christmases ago I went to Monterey in California to dive with some people I had never met before. All I knew at the time was that they were GUE tech 1 trained. It was the first time that I have ever dove with complete strangers and had zero surprises in the dives we did - from the planning through to the actual dive itself, everything went like clockwork.

I would disagree in that other agencies cannot offer training on the DIR path (although maybe this may be semantics here). The DIR path is GUE specific and if your goal is Tech 1 or higher, you need to start with GUE fundamentals. Other agencies can offer DIR-like courses (which may be just as good - although I really know little about these courses) and if your ultimate goal does not include any of the higher level GUE certifications, these courses may be the way to go.

Additionally, within the GUE/DIR path, keep in mind that not all GUE instructors can teach beyond fundamentals, so if you're looking for consistency though certifications beyond fundamentals, keep in mind that you might be changing instructors.

Jimmer

01-14-2009, 03:13 PM

There is only one canadian GUE instructor, and two interning hopefuls.

Ah ok, I only knew of Dan in Ontario, I was curious when someone mentioned 2 or 3.

Chantelle

01-14-2009, 03:20 PM

Ah ok, I only knew of Dan in Ontario, I was curious when someone mentioned 2 or 3.

There are almost 5. :D

Jen

01-14-2009, 03:41 PM

You and Me Chan?....:rolleyes: (kidding for now....but maybe down the road)

Chantelle

01-14-2009, 04:15 PM

You and Me Chan?....:rolleyes: (kidding for now....but maybe down the road)

Lol... I guess ya never know! :p

Steve B

01-14-2009, 11:15 PM

I'm not sure what words you would like me to add to this thread.
Having said that, I can say that I have done training with pretty much every dive training agency out there. It is my experience that GUE's offers the most solid and safest dive training program out there today.

Many dive boards have threads on agency debates. I will point out one thing I see in common with these threads. Those who state that their agency offers "DIR" training have a false pretense as to what the complete DIR package is or think it is, because he/she have never gone throught the GUE training program and don't know what they don't know. It is mostly instructors from other agencies that have invested alot of time and money to get to where they are, and don't feel they can be shown a different way/approach to this sport we love so much. I was going down this same path before I was asked by a friend to be his dive buddy on a DIRF. I was reluctant to go but DAMN glad I did!

Dive safe

Steve Blanchard

Joe

01-15-2009, 12:17 AM

Many dive boards have threads on agency debates. I will point out one thing I see in common with these threads. Those who state that their agency offers "DIR" training have a false pretense as to what the complete DIR package is or think it is, because he/she have never gone throught the GUE training program and don't know what they don't know.

This statement speaks volumes. It's funny how many different DIR interpretations there are out there. Instructors from all the other agencies throw DIR around nowadays but what they are selling is not DIR. Without GUE training they will never no. I read everything I got my hands on, talk to lots of people and was still amazed at what I learned once in the classroom.

Joe

01-15-2009, 12:19 AM

Ah ok, I only knew of Dan in Ontario, I was curious when someone mentioned 2 or 3.

Ya guess I jumped the gun a little with that statement. :D Should have said the one instructor and two soon to be. That I know of anyways. Actually I do know of a third but he has dropped of the radar as of late.

Oren

01-15-2009, 03:03 AM

Crap.
You all already wrote most of what I was intending to write in my answer to Matt. Not much left for me.... buggers.... :(
You just said everything in a much more polite way. I think it has something to do with me not being a Canadian and not having that pathological urge of not offending anyone.... :)

My experiences in Matt's shop are not needed to be described publicly unless he or someone else wants to hear of them.

On a side note: Matt, unfortunately, you don't know what you're talking about when saying that I'm selling and repairing dry suits as I don't.
I'm a DUI Key Person and promote their products. If you want, you can call me a "facilitator" ;)
Once someone is interested in a DUI and contacts me, I'm going over the options with them and send them to a certain DUI dealer to get their suit ordered.

Chantelle

01-15-2009, 09:37 AM

Ya guess I jumped the gun a little on with that statement. :D Should have said the one instructor and two soon to be. That I know of anyways. Actually I do know of a third but he has dropped of the radar as of late.

There are also another two... one on the east coast, and another on the west coast. :rolleyes:

Joe

01-15-2009, 10:15 AM

There are also another two... one on the east coast, and another on the west coast. :rolleyes:

Cool, I thought you were talking about You and Jen.

Joe

01-15-2009, 11:02 AM

There are also another two... one on the east coast, and another on the west coast. :rolleyes:

Who are they? They aren't listed on the GUE site.

Chantelle

01-15-2009, 11:56 AM

Who are they? They aren't listed on the GUE site.

One of them I don't know, but do know they are planning on doing the ITC this year. The other one I do know, and they don't really want it made public until they do it.

They aren't listed on the site, as they haven't done the ITC yet. :)

PeteSmith

01-15-2009, 12:07 PM

One of them I don't know, but do know they are planning on doing the ITC this year. The other one I do know, and they don't really want it made public until they do it.

They aren't listed on the site, as they haven't done the ITC yet. :)

What is the ITC??

PeteSmith

01-15-2009, 12:13 PM

What is the ITC??

Itchy Tush Control?

Immersion Test Certificate?

Intelligence Tested & Confirmed?

or maybe even Instructors Training Course?

Joe

01-15-2009, 12:41 PM

Chantelle

01-15-2009, 12:55 PM

What is the ITC??

Instructor Training Course :p

Chantelle

01-15-2009, 12:58 PM

Got it. Thought the other two were already teaching. ;) A side note, GUE's web site needs some work.

No sir... Only Dan is teaching at the moment. There are 4 more to be added soon, hopefully. Three have to do the ITC and IE (Instructor's Exam), and one has to do a few internships, then the IE. :) (Yes, I have included both of the Steve's in there, and no... two of them are not Jen and I) :p :p